Yes, you can write copy that attracts your ideal client and reflects your personality. How? Apply some of the tips and tricks that Jess Drury, wordsmith extraordinaire, or copywriter at heartlinescopywritingstudio.com, shares during this in-depth copywriting for coaches masterclass.
You will learn how to use your personal archetypes when writing copy, how to breathe life into your words by mastering story plots, how to edit your first draft and turn it into a masterpiece and how to escape the blinking cursor curse (yes, we've all been there). And, whether short or long copy is the way to go and the reason why headline formulas hurt your business and so much more.
Jess spills the beans on everything copywriting so you can turn your words into sales.
Grab a pen and paper - and maybe a cup of tea or a glass of wine as this episode will be a longer one - and get ready because you won't wanna miss a thing. Trust me. You will get the inside scoop and behind-the-scenes secrets you most likely have never heard before when it comes to copywriting. All, so you can up-level your writing to grow your coaching business.
Now, without further ado, let's welcome in Jess.
Hi, Jess. How are you doing? Good, how are you? Good, thank you.
Jess is joining us from Ontario, Canada, tonight, and I've heard it's freezing cold there. Is that right? It is cold and it's snowing already. Yeah. I can't believe it. It's mid November and here in Australia it's actually getting super hot, but let's not talk about the weather... Let's talk about copywriting for coaches.
And, Jess, do you mind sharing a little bit about your journey? I know you first were a teacher and then you became or your calling was a copywriter. Are you willing to share a little bit about that journey? Sure.
So yeah, I started out with degrees in history and psychology and education, and then I taught high school English for a number of years until I decided to become a mum. And then I stayed home. I quit teaching, stayed home with my kids and after a few years of nothing but ABCs and nursery rhymes, I felt like I had to do something else.
I knew that I did not have the personality to do those MLM parties every week. I just sounded exhausting and horrible. I also know that I am not crafty. I was never gonna be the person that has the cake decorating business or the knitting business. So I really kind of looked at my skillset and thought what is the one thing that you have
always done really well and really loved?
And that was writing. And so I started with that.
It was more of a creative writing course
at the University of Toronto because I
was like, I don't know what to do.
Well, let's just go back to university.
And the prof was a copywriter
and he explained what that was.
And I did not even know that that existed
as a job until he said that that's how
he actually made most of his
money, not as a university prof.
And that just became
this deep dive for me.
I started taking course after
course online from the
American Writers and Artists Institute,
and then I found a bunch of
copywriters online, like Ash
Ambirge and I took all of her courses
back in the day and I just kind of opened
up shop one day with a
one-page website. And
that was it. Wow, that's incredible.
It sounds a little bit
like my coaching journey, right?
The moment you dig in or get
first in touch with what does
personal development actually mean
there are just so many more resources
that you want to explore and dig deep and
even deeper and deeper. And so that's
incredible. And how do you use,
I mean you just said you
did psychology, right?
So how do you apply this right now in copywriting?
That has a lot to do with the brand
archetypes that I use. So,
there are 12 brand archetypes
based on Jungian psychology.
And when I first got into copywriting,
it was more of the old school
direct mail style copywriting.
And from there, pardon? The
sleazy one? Yes. The sleazy ones,
the ones that come in your mail
still today and you just toss,
like without even checking, that's
the original copywriting that I learned.
Then I kind of got into this whole
creative copywriting and brand copywriting
and that's where I fell in love.
And then that kind of led me down the
branding wormhole and I realised people
were using archetypes to create brands
and I could use archetypes to create a
And it felt like a very natural
extension from the psychology and the,
I always preferred Jung
over Freud anyways,
and into the writing I could
just see how they merged.
Wow. So you did write a book
also about the archetypes, right?
and I think I wrote it in
2016 so a number of years ago,
or I published it in 2016; I
probably wrote it in 2015.
And a lot of that was me
getting clear, you know,
the way that I get clear about something
as I write it out. I'm a writer,
and so the book was about,
it was about publishing a book,
something I had always wanted to do,
but it was also about being able to
clearly articulate the brand archetypes
and what that meant for you in your words.
So how would you say that the brand archetypes changed your
copywriting? I know you've prepared
a little bit of a, you know,
a brand essence statement for us,
but how would you say that knowing your
brand archetypes and it's actually not
about your clients, it's about
knowing your brand archetypes -
like I think mine was when I first worked with you, together
we found out it's explorer, artist and visionary -
so how does that actually just in a few sentences influence the
copywriting and maybe help you
become a better copywriter?
So brand archetypes are universally
recognised patterns of behaviour.
They're intrinsic, they're unconscious.
We don't think when we
see something, oh that's
this archetype. But we recognise the rebel in James Dean.
We recognise the
caregiver in Mother Teresa.
Those are archetypical images and people.
And when you apply them
to your brand, it's
a way to call in all the people
who resonate with those archetypes.
And it's a way to be true to yourself
and also to create a foundation that is
very flexible. My favourite example is Coca-Cola.
innocent archetype and they have
taken that innocent archetype and they
managed to make it work. If you
look at their marketing campaigns,
they've made it work for decades.
You know, we used to have the
Coca-Cola polar bears, right?
These cartoon polar bears and they were
sharing their Coke with all the other
animals including the penguins
somehow in the Arctic.
And it was all about
The main thing about the innocence
is connection and connection stories.
And now we look at Coca-Cola
some of the more recent ones about how
we can feel so isolated online and how
there can be so much cyber-bullying.
And then you see somebody at this
internet terminal, you know,
with all the wires
and the boards, and they accidentally
spill a bottle of Coke on it.
And suddenly everybody gets
these messages of
love and of light and
they're connecting with each
other and they're looking
up from their phones and they're feeling
good. And they've taken that innocence,
that innocent archetype and they've
made it work for every decade.
And I think they are a
brilliant example of that.
An archetype isn't limiting; it's
a foundation from which you always
approach and people recognise you as
that. If Coke was to come out with like a
real rebel campaign,
nobody would resonate with that because
that's not what we recognise as being
Coca-Cola now. And you do the
same thing with your own brand.
You become recognisable in a way that feels authentic to you.
I love that authentic part because I know
for coaches and obviously my clients,
like life, health or, you
know, career coaches,
they all look for being themselves or
being more of themselves and finding their
own authentic voice rather than sounding like everyone else or work with
swipe files or the typical templates kind
of thing. And I know you have a very
unique, or not unique opinion,
but a strong opinion about
using templates or headline formulas,
Yeah, I think, you know,
I think they're shortcuts.
And I think sometimes when you
have no idea where to begin,
we start with the shortcuts, the
easy things like formulas.
If you fill in the blank, then this
headline will work for you. Maybe it does,
maybe it doesn't.
Maybe you just wasted all your time
filling out templates and forms and formulas to
find out that that isn't, it
doesn't feel like you, you know,
and you want to rewrite it two months
later because it just doesn't feel right
or because you're not getting the same
response that the other person did who
sold you the template or formula.
Because they're in the marketing sphere
and you're in the coaching sphere and it
And that's why I think it's better to
understand the why and the how behind the
writing so that you can make it your own.
I love that. And it's
also like what a lot of
let's say at least my clients or prospects
don't really consider is the fact
that our clients evolve.
So when they first
see a very specific
maybe they react to it because it
sounds amazing and like something new.
But the more people use those
templates or swipe files and just copy
and paste it, then it just doesn't,
let's say the news factor is gone
and the only thing left is actually,
oh my gosh, that person just sounded like
that coach, or I've read this before.
So what do you actually do?
You simply ignore what has been written
and you also don't stand out or,
well let's say you stand out in a way
that you actually don't want to stand out,
right? Because you want to sound like you.
And I know that one of the questions, and it's really key,
and I think when I filled out your brief
when we first started working together,
you said something like
what is unique about you,
what is your USP or unique
selling proposition? And, I mean,
our clients are asking
themselves exactly the same,
but I know whenever I read
that question it's like, oh my gosh,
what is different about me?
So how can you as a copywriter help
people find out what is unique about them?
What is your unique approach on that?
so understanding what's unique about
you or your unique selling proposition is a
standard copywriting question.
You'll get that from just about
every copywriter on the block.
They'll ask you what's unique
about your business?
And most people stumble
on that. I think
in the beginning I even stumbled
upon that and I'm like, oh, I don't,
I don't know what's unique about me. I'm
a copywriter. I only do this, you know,
and then we try to like, you know,
say, well, I only write for websites.
Well, there's a lot of other copywriters
out there writing for websites,
you know, or a common
answer is, I don't know.
People just kind of look at that question
and they feel suddenly insecure
about everything. Like they should
have it figured out, but they don't.
And they're just like, I don't
know, figure it out yourself.
And they go on to the
next question. And I think
sometimes you do have something really
unique about your business that
nobody else can claim. But those
people are very few and far between.
And for most of us, the thing that
is unique about our business is us.
Nobody's going to deliver what you're
delivering exactly the way that you do
with your experience and your
history and your personality.
It's not that you're the only one
offering this coaching package.
Maybe there are thousands of other
people offering the same kind of coaching
package and the same kind of results,
but nobody's going to do
it the way that you do.
And that's where the brand archetypes,
understanding your archetypes,
understanding your personality
and also values,
and coming from a values-based approach
to marketing really sets you apart and
allows people to choose
you for deeper reasons.
because they can see the common ground
in personality or they can see the common
ground in your values.
And so they're not choosing you because
you know you happen to have a package
they're looking for or they're not
choosing you because you're the cheapest.
We really hope that's not why
people choose us is just price.
We want them to choose us, because of who we are.
And then they don't mind paying more.
Yeah. But how do we communicate that?
Because I can't put in a post,
hey, work with me because
I'm me and not someone else.
So how can you help
people draw out that
what is unique about me - how
can you draw that out from them?
And I think you also mentioned
something about values,
so were you talking about the
personal values that I have as a
person or are you
talking about the
values of providing
value to your customers?
No, I'm talking about
your personal values.
Like if integrity is top of your list,
then you need to show people that
integrity is the top of your list.
And you need to talk about integrity
and what that means for you.
So that for everybody else
for whom integrity is top
of their list, they can go,
yes, I want to work with that person
because we're on the same page here.
And so I, as well as
the brand archetyping,
I do a core brand values
assessment where we or
you come up with your top five brand values and we merge them together and we make
that very explicitly stated
in your copy. So that's kind of really
unique about you as a copywriter, right?
Because I think I've, I mean... That's my USP.
I kind of never heard
that really from anyone else.
I think I've read something
about archetypes in storytelling,
which is obviously part of copywriting
and I think you're going to touch on
that a little bit later
with the different plots,
but I also heard in brand
and designing a little bit about
archetypes, but I haven't
really heard it in copywriting.
So I really think it's amazing that
you're talking about this one here.
And then I think you also prepared an example to show how all the
archetypes and personal values of people come together in a statement
that really expresses what is my unique
selling proposition and who am I and
what do I stand for or
what do I not stand for.
So I'm certainly not the only copywriter
out there who talks about archetypes
and values, but I think it's essential to
communicate it to clients.
And I did prepare a
brand statement and I'll
show you what a crappy first draft
looks like and then we'll talk about
how we refine that.
Because I think whenever we start to
talk about our industry, our business,
our values, we come out very
sounding, very cliched. You know,
the cliches naturally flow.
They're cliched because they're overused,
which means they're top of mind when
you're trying to write things. And
so I will walk you through that example
and show you what to do about the
cliches and how your archetypes and
values can show up in your words.
So would you say that tapping
into your full potential is cliche?
Everyone is saying it and it's just
getting so cliche really. And
I know Jess prepared that brand statement
example for us and you will
It's incredible how many cliches you
use without even realising it or
you realise it, but then you don't
know how to say it differently.
And I think I'm not the only one who
struggles a little bit with that.
No. And I even use cliches when
I write my first draft.
It's all about just getting
the ideas down on paper.
So I let it flow and
every time I hit a cliche,
I just circle it and keep writing.
And so I know that I can
come back and fix it later.
But it's not about stopping that creative
flow or stopping the ideas getting on
You don't want to overthink every sentence
while you're trying to just get your
ideas out. So yeah,
even I write cliches in all of my
copy before I go and fix it.
You can know that feels better now.
One question before we
move into your examples.
So the archetypes and values
are obviously all about us,
but if I just recall a lot of
blogs and free articles that I've read
and resources, everyone says, well
you need to focus on your clients.
It's all about your clients,
what they want and their
pains and challenges and
emotions and all that stuff.
So how does that - them and me - fit together?
Yeah, there is a,
a balance or like a sweet spot that
you have to find between talking about
yourself and talking about your clients.
Your clients have to be very clear on
what you do and how you can help them.
I think for me you will always be
aligned on your values and so you kind
of can't go wrong talking about
values, how that works for your client,
how the values are
felt in their pain points,
how those values show up, what they are
dreaming about how they want their life
to be. That is always going to
be in alignment. You know
I hate the advice and it's really
prevalent in the coaching world that
your ideal client
is you five years ago.
And I know I had that when I first
started out. I hired a business coach.
And she said
to me your ideal client is you
five years ago when I'm like me
five years ago I was a
stay-at-home mum. Stay-at-home
mums don't need copywriters.
How is that my ideal client?
I need somebody with a business. Five
years ago I didn't have one.
And she really argued with me about how
my ideal client was a former
version of myself and I thought, no,
it doesn't work that way for
me. I have always, you know,
once I learned copywriting and
I put up shop as a copywriter,
then I didn't ever need
to hire a copywriter.
So, but I think that there does have to
be an alignment between you and them.
There does have to be common ground.
And for me that is always the values
that do that work.
Yeah. I think if you guys out there
just wanna check out Jess's book,
I think you sell it on amazon.com,
.co.uk, obviously in Canada...
I think it's on all the Amazon's. Can
you just share the title quickly?
"The Power of Personality for Your Small Business."
If you're interested in the book,
I will put the link below this video in
the description section so you can just
go and click there and then go shopping if
you want to. Okay. Now if you're ready,
Jess, can we look at that brand essence
statement and maybe before we dive in,
why do we actually need a
brand essence statement?
I think it's a lot of
it's a very concise statement
that tells you who you are,
what you do and what you stand for.
So it's got your beliefs wrapped into
what you do and who you serve and how you
serve them. And for me,
it's a foundational piece.
Whenever I have a new client,
even if they haven't hired me to write
a brand statement, I always start there.
And then I look at the
themes that are coming up,
the things that feel really important,
and I pull from that to write the sales
page or I pull from that to make the
tagline or whatever it
is that I'm writing.
So I think a lot of clarity and then
I think it gives you kind of that
beginning place where you can
start from there and build on it. Yeah.
And kind of repurpose, right, in a way? Yeah. Yeah. Right.
You don't need to write everything brand new every time.
It sounds like really the foundation piece so that they can
connect to you and hopefully
stop comparing prices.
What a lot of coaches are worried about that they're all just, you know,
price tag or price shoppers.
But that's actually not true.
If you can stand out and be
really clear about who you are,
what you offer and who you serve,
I think that makes all the
difference in the world.
And people feel great about that because
they know you're the right coach to
Yeah. If you have a compelling
enough reason for them to choose you,
it won't matter what the price
is. I love that. I love that.
All right, so I will share my screen.
So I think you prepared a little bit
like the first crappy draft for us.
you'll also give a little
bit of insights into your workflow if I'm
So you don't just write one piece and
it's genius and perfect from the
first second, you're actually
going through a process
yourself when writing.
Yes. Okay. And I was not on the
first screen. Hold on. No worries.
Yes, the tech gremlins,
they're just everywhere. All right,
so we're going to talk
about creating a brand
statement or a brand essence
statement or brand positioning statement.
Different people will
call it different things.
So I have created a not real
business that I have called Live it,
Dream it, Life Coaching.
I have assigned them some
archetypes and values.
So the archetypes are
visionary, caregiver, and rebel.
So most coaching businesses will either
be caregiver or visionary archetypes.
Those are the two main
archetypes for coaches.
And then all the other
archetypes also fit in there.
Their values: They value non-conformity,
that's the rebel. Transformation,
that's the visionary. They're
supportive and non-judgmental,
and that's the caregiver part.
They're ideal clients for this business
are women in their 30s who are
dissatisfied with life and they want
more, more connection in relationships,
more fulfilment at work, more freedom
to choose what their life looks like.
These women feel trapped in the status quo and they want courage or permission to
break out of it without
blowing up their life.
They like their life to be more fulfilling.
They don't want to go live in a yurt.
Okay, so elements to include in
a brand statement, who you are,
what you do and who you do it for.
That should be the first sentence of
your homepage, just for SEO purposes.
But it's also the first statement
in our brand statement, I mean the first sentence.
Second thing... what you
believe or what you stand for.
And the third thing we like to include
is what you're not, what you stand
against, who you don't
serve or what you don't do.
And that just gives an extra layer of
clarity and it allows people to self-
select if you're not
what they're looking for.
And we really want them to do that.
We don't want you to be wasting time
booking discovery calls with people who
don't really, they're not
going to be a good fit. Yeah.
So it's kind of the strategy
of attracting the right ones,
but also repelling the wrong ones
without necessarily wasting time.
Right, exactly. Love it. Okay,
so here is my crappy first draft. Live
it, Dream it, Life Coaching is the vision of Dr
Jane Doe who has dedicated her life to
helping women step into their personal
We believe dissatisfaction
can be a catalyst to design
the life you're dreaming
of. Deeper connections
in your relationships,
more fulfilment and alignment at work.
Living your best life is about saying...
Can I swear? I guess so quickly. Okay.
It's about saying F it to the
status quo so you can speak your truth
and reclaim the power to shape your
destiny. I'm sorry I didn't even ask.
That's the rebel. That's the rebel
coming out, right? If she's a rebel brand,
the odd swear word is going
to be on brand for her.
It kind of gives you the idea that
she's a tell it like it is, you know,
straight shooter. So this
is my crappy first draft.
Let's see. So the visionary archetype,
we can see coming through with the words,
the vision and step into
your personal power -
that's the transformation. Catalyst
that is a visionary word and the
life you're dreaming of, right?
That vision that you have for your
life. We can see the caregiver
archetype coming in with deeper
connections in your relationships.
And we see the rebel archetype
talking about dissatisfaction,
right? Saying F it to the status quo,
speaking your truth and reclaiming
your power. That's all rebel,
ideas and rather than words.
So when you write the first draft,
are you already thinking maybe
it's innate in your case,
how do you come up with those words?
Is it just coincidence that you use them
and they're then matching
the archetypes or how should I say
are you getting yourself into the mindset
of those people and think about how
would they say it?
A lot of it is coming from
what my client is telling me.
So if I slip back here, a couple of slides,
right? So this is my client. They're
telling me about their clients.
They're telling me they want
connection and relationships.
They're telling me they want
more fulfilment at work.
They're telling me that they
feel trapped in the status quo.
So I'm taking those ideas that
come from my creative brief,
something that all of my clients fill
out that tells me all about them and their
clients and their business.
And I'm taking those ideas and they
become the bones of what I'm working on.
So you can see that here. I talk about
deeper connections in your relationships.
Exactly what they told me.
Saying, F it to the status quo.
I reworded what they told me.
aAd I talk about the dissatisfaction
that their clients feel.
So that's where it begins.
It begins with the words that my
clients use to describe the
people that they serve. Yeah. And
you might just amplify that a little bit.
Yes... Like saying F it to the status
quo to really reflect them and
the rebel personality in them. Yeah.
So I for sure I tweaked
them. I changed them around.
I'm not necessarily taking my client's
words word for word and just plunking it
on the page, but that's
where the ideas start for me.
So what is so crappy when it comes to that draft? Okay.
So I've got two things here
that are the kiss of death to every copy.
And that is vagueness and cliches.
So we say the vague: helping women. Okay.
Well is that all women
universally around the world?
It's very vague.
What kind of women? Helping them do
what? A deeper connection in your
relationships. What does that
actually mean? How does that,
what does that look like? More
fulfilment and alignment at work. Again,
what does that mean?
What does that look like?
What does it feel like
to be more fulfilled?
Or what does it feel like
to be aligned at work?
And cliches: We've got step
into your personal power.
One of my favourite coaching cliches.
Design the life you're dreaming
of, living your best life,
speaking your truth. All cliches.
Reclaim the power to shape your
destiny. That feels kind of cliche.
I don't know if it's really a
saying or if it's just cheesy, but
wow. Yeah. Now looking at, you know,
how you pointed out those two things
I have to admit, well,
I think that would be me.
That will be my draft and I would be proud of it,
because it sounds even a little
bit, it sounds sophisticated.
It's nice to read, but it doesn't mean or tell a lot.
My crappy first draft, I'll start out
this way too. They sound great
but when you actually look
a little bit closer
there are some problems, but
that's okay. That's why we edit.
That's why there's more than
one draft of everything. Yeah.
So let's have a look...
This is the question that I love to
use when I'm trying to unpack a cliche.
So if my cliche is stepping
into your personal power,
I ask what does that look
like for these clients?
So my client's clients, but what
does that look like for the client?
Does that look like
confidently walking into
the boardroom to present?
Does that look like
being able to say no to the people in
your life who are sucking your time and
energy? You know,
it could look a lot of different ways
and sometimes you have to ask that
question a number of times to get to a
place that is specific and true for your
But let's assume that it would be in an
executive woman and she obviously
has different roles, right? Like
she's in that executive position,
but she might also have a family at home,
is a mum and a partner maybe even doing
some things with charity. So which
one do you then pick?
I think it depends
on what you're helping her with as a coach.
Are you helping her with her whole life?
Are you helping her just with her position
at work? Are you helping her with
her personal relationships, you know,
with her significant other with
her kids, with her parents?
I think the part that you choose to
focus on is the part that you're going to
help with. Okay. So let me
give you an example of the
stepping into your personal power.
So this was a vague statement
that was in our original
crappy first draft
helping women step into their personal
power. So which women? Helping them
how? And what does it look like
to step into your personal power?
So for this imaginary business,
I have said that they're going to
support career women as they
transition to soulful purpose-
driven positions they love.
So it's a little bit more clearer now.
We're not just helping all of womankind
and we're telling you what that personal
It's a soulful purpose-driven
position that they love.
Now those words are still a little
vague. You could still refine them more.
If you wanted to spend more time on
what that looks like in your client,
you could continue to drill
down. For our purposes today,
we're going to say that this is a clearer
statement and a more specific statement
than helping women step into
their personal power.
So in this case, we know that helping
is supporting through a transition.
We know that we're targeting career women and positions implies to me that they
don't want to become entrepreneurs.
I know so many coaches
help women go from
the world of work to the
world of entrepreneurship.
And I think this coach,
this imaginary business is a little bit
different in that they're staying in the
corporate world and that's okay
too. That's a valid choice.
So they like the world of work, they
just wish things were different.
So there's still room for further
clarification, like I said,
and more specificity. But
I think we're on the right track.
I like it. And it's so important.
I know when I first outsourced, you know,
copywriting or pieces of copywriting,
and I think I have to admit it was
something like Fiverr or so, I was like,
why do they ask me so many questions and why can't they figure it out on their
own? I can write it myself, you know,
until I answer all the questions.
I think the annoyance that I
had was because I didn't have clarity
really every good copywriter should
ask questions back and ask for clarification.
Because it really helps you in the end
nail your message and stand out and be
understood so that's it clear to your ideal
client if it's really you that
they should work with or not.
So I really love it.
I know it's a little bit of a pain in the
butt to drill down so much because in
the end you're just wanting to have
your copy and put it on your website or
email. But it's so
important to be clear. So I
love that you brought this one up.
Okay. So here's my final draft.
I'll first show you where each of
the archetypes are still showing up.
We have: Live it, Dream it, Life Coaching
is the vision of Dr Jane Doe
who's devoted her life to supporting
career women as they transition into
soulful purpose-driven positions.
We believe dissatisfaction can be a clue
and a catalyst to find work that's more
aligned with your values and talents.
We believe you can cultivate positive
relationships with all your colleagues.
Yes, even that guy.
And we believe you don't need to ditch
the boardroom to find fulfilment because
giving yourself permission to say F it
to the status quo doesn't have to mean
destroying everything you've built
and starting over from scratch.
All it takes is a little
courage and creativity.
So we've gotten a lot more specific about
who we're working with and how we're
helping them in this version. We still
have the visionary showing up.
The vision, the word,
the transition, right?
Visionary is all about transformation,
transition and just soulful,
The fact that you don't need to ditch
the boardroom to find fulfilment.
That feels kind of very visionary for
me because a lot of people feel like
that's the only way,
and all it takes is a little
courage and creativity, right?
That's all very visionary as
well. The caregiver, we've talked about,
we have words like devoted, supporting,
aligned with your values and
talents and positive relationships.
All very nurturing
vocabulary and language that shows
we're the caregiver archetype and the rebel is
still in here with the dissatisfaction
can be a clue and a catalyst.
And because giving yourself permission
to say F it to the status quo,
that's still the rebel here.
And not everything changed,
you know, from the
first draft to the second. We have a lot of changes,
but I liked that dissatisfaction
can be a catalyst.
I really liked that idea and I
just played with it a little bit.
I liked the whole giving yourself
permission to say F it to the status quo.
That felt really rebel. I liked it.
And then I qualified it by saying,
it doesn't mean destroying everything
you've built because that's not what our
clients want to do with their lives.
Yeah, love it. It's incredible. Wow.
And I love that you can see all those
different archetypes coming
together and that
they're also, potentially, you know
really need to be together in
that copy because none of us,
I guess, is just one thing or
have just one archetype,
but we're all mixed ones.
So I remember when I read your
book and read through the archetypes,
there were almost all
archetypes where I said, oh,
I have a little bit of that one and
I have a little bit of that one.
Whereas obviously, for me,
the explorer was one where I
was like, without a shadow of a doubt,
that's kind of 100% me. Whereas
with the others I was like, oh, that could be me
and here is a little bit of me,
but we're all kind of, yeah, multi-faceted.
Yes. And if you want to talk
about individual human beings,
we do have access to all 12 archetypes
within us and you access them in
different situations and
with different people.
So it's true that we're
going to favour one or more,
like maybe one to three more than
the others, but certainly as individuals,
all of those archetypes exist within
us. We have access to all of that.
When it comes to branding your business,
I always choose the top three. We
never want to be one-dimensional.
But at the same point, if you
looked at your business and went, well,
sometimes it's this and sometimes it's
that and maybe it's seven or eight of the
12 that starts to get
And it starts to be really
inconsistent. So by choosing a top three,
we make sure that we
are not one-dimensional,
but we're also giving our brand consistency.
Yeah, I love that.
And this is how you can really
write all of your copy, right?
Like emails or social media
posts... Or I know that you
were also talking about how you can
or I think you mentioned
it at the beginning,
how you can repurpose then things out of
your brand essence statement for other
things. So can you give us
an example with this one here?
Yeah, for sure. So this, like I said,
is the foundation piece that
I've used. I love the sentence.
You don't need to ditch the
boardroom to find fulfilment.
And I think I would turn that
into a headline for my sales page.
Love it. You don't need to ditch the
boardroom to find fulfilment.
And then we're going to talk about,
we talk about how dissatisfaction
can be a clue and a catalyst.
So in my sales page,
I would talk about what
that dissatisfaction looks
like and feels like at work.
You get very specific, right?
And then we talk about
how that can change.
You don't have to leave the boardroom.
This is what we can do and what it feels
like and looks like to have work that
feels aligned with you, that feels, purposeful and fulfilling.
And I think that would be kind of how
my sales page, how I would structure that.
But I would, yeah, I
would for sure start with,
you don't need to ditch the
boardroom to find fulfilment.
That would be my headline.
Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah.
And for the about page again,
I could use the
idea that Dr Jane Doe has devoted
her life to supporting career
women as they transition into different
positions. So maybe that was something
that she did for herself.
And I could talk a little bit about her
journey and how that helps my clients
know that she gets them,
that she understands them. Or
maybe it wasn't her journey.
Maybe it was a best friend
that she watched go through
trying to transition into
a more purposeful,
fulfilling position at work and all the
challenges that she watched this friend
over, you know,
go through and how that creates empathy
and awareness of what the client is
going through right
now. And I think, yeah,
now talking about the about page, I
know there is the saying out there,
that the about page is the most
important page on your entire website.
So what's your take on
that and is it actually true?
And I don't know how often I changed my about page because I felt like what I wrote
at the beginning when I started my business in 2014 is - I evolved and I
grew - so it's not relevant right now.
So I feel with my story that I have a,
like my life story is always changing.
So what are your thoughts about a
the importance of an about me page and b
changing stories on there to
connect with your reader?
Yeah, they say that the about page is
the most visited page on your website.
And I think especially when
we talk about a coaching niche,
you want to know who
you're working with, right?
If you don't feel like you have
a good vibe with that person,
if you don't feel
understood by that person,
then you're going to go
look for another coach.
I think that's especially
true for coaches.
So my about page has had...
That's right as you're not dealing with a brand that may have multiple kinds of people you deal with,
you're working with a coach and
you open really up about your life and
maybe about situations that you haven't even
admitted or talked about like to your
partner or your spouse and maybe even
haven't admitted to yourself yet.
So it needs to be that
trust and connection there.
So I love what you said
about the about page.
Yeah, I know for me, I've had many,
many iterations of my
about page over the years
and I think, yeah, I think as
we evolve as entrepreneurs,
it is it completely natural for
our about page to evolve as well.
When I first started out,
I think my about page,
my first about page was basically a resume
because I came from the world of work
where you had a resume and a cover letter.
And so when somebody asks you about
you, you're like here's my resume.
And then I realised that about
pages on the internet were a little bit
And I think the first story I told was
that transition from stay-at-home mum to
copywriter and how I had
felt dissatisfied with,
you know, I think
five years of the ABCs and
and nursery rhymes and
reading Sesame streets.
And I just felt like my
brain was shrinking and I
needed to do something that
was more creative and stimulating for me.
And I talked about how I am not good
at the MLM style and I'm the worst,
the queen of Pinterest fail I
think was a phrase that I used.
And that was my first one. And it
was true. It was absolutely true.
And then I talked about,
I think the next version of my about page
was talking about the dissatisfaction
that I really felt when
I was teaching.
I happened to teach at a school where
it was a very toxic environment,
work environment and how that really
got me down and how writing became
an exercise in healing those
wounds for me and how writing for other
women who found their voice, who
were powerful and were creating things
in the world was so inspiring for me.
Coming from a, you know,
a toxic work environment and been
a stay-at-home mum environment,
which was lovely and very,
very isolated too, right, to this business
that inspired me in ways that I didn't
even know that I needed to
be inspired. And my
current version focuses more on how
it helped me find my voice that I didn't
realise was gone until I started writing
for other women in their businesses
And I realised how much of a voice I
didn't have in my personal life and how
this business became actually a catalyst
for so many changes for me personally.
And I think every time we tell our story,
we find a little bit more courage
to be a little bit more vulnerable.
We're able to like peel back the
next layer and it just takes time.
It's taken years to get to the
current version that it's at.
I'm sure in a couple of years time it
will look nothing like what it does right
now. And that's totally fine.
Oh my gosh, what a relief for all of us.
And obviously also for me
because I feel like
there were just too many different
versions of me out there.
And if people followed me from the
beginning, it's like, who is this person?
Once she said this, then she says this.
But in the end, it's really that development and that growth,
but it's also just putting a
spotlight onto a very specific piece of
the journey. You obviously don't
put your entire life on there
but just a piece. So with your
about page, I know you have,
I think something in your shop,
the anatomy of a sales page.
Do you have anything
similar for an about page,
like a structure or a framework?
I don't have anything specifically
for the about page yet.
And I think that's because there's so
much room for creativity in the way that
you tell your story. It's hard to
give people a you must do this
on your about page. So, if there was one,
you know, "rule" and rules are made to be broken.
But I would say it's that you need
to talk about you, your story,
and you also need to talk
about your client's story
and how that works together.
So some people start off
talking about themselves,
me and then you and then us together
and other people start off talking about
the client and then me
and then us together.
And those three elements, however you
do it, whether you use a timeline,
whether you're telling paragraphs,
whether you've got some, I don't know,
visual way of creating that story
that you and me and us together
always needs to be there.
Hmm. So it comes back again
to the sweet spot, right?
Between the you-and-me sweetspot meaning "us" and how we fit
together. So I know that we're
I'm not sure if it's
linked to the archetypes,
but in marketing at the moment and
I guess, well not at the moment,
it was so in the past and I
guess it will be so in the future,
it's all about storytelling, right?
So what do you think about storytelling
in copywriting and is it something that
we should include in an about
page or can use in some way?
Yeah, I think storytelling is essential.
There's actually a lot
of brain science,
it's my psychology coming out again,
that supports that we process information
in storytelling forms in a way that we
don't process anything else. And it
really creates that emotional connection,
which we all know is essential if
you want somebody to buy from you.
Every decision to buy is emotional first.
And the way to get people emotionally
connected is to tell a story.
So I think storytelling is
essential to copywriting.
I think we need to throw out just about
everything we learned about storytelling
in grammar school or grade
school or elementary.
And realise that you can tell
a story in a single sentence.
Your storytelling doesn't
have to be linear. You know,
like when you're a little
kid and you're like,
it began here and then this happened and
this happened and this is what happened
at the end. That is not the only
format for storytelling, thankfully.
And that's not the format that your website needs to take.
You can tell a story in a single sentence. There are three plots, again,
backed by psychology that, we really connect into.
And those are the creativity plot,
the connection plot,
and the challenge plot.
So the challenge plot is
your hero story, right?
It's every superhero movie
that you've ever had, you know,
and it's the hero's journey. If
you're familiar with Joseph Campbell,
that is the challenge story, right? It's,
I had this plan or this idea and then
there was this obstacle, this obstacle,
this obstacle, this obstacle.
But I overcame them all and sometimes
I had help along the way and then I
achieved what it was, my goal, my
outcome that I was looking for.
The connection plot is all about that.
It's about bridging gaps
between people, between ideas.
That bridge could be
anything. Let me think of a movie.
I'm not going to come up with
one on the spot... Invictus,
that's a connection movie. That's also a
little bit of a challenge too, you know,
where you bridge
race or ethnicity or gender or there's
something that is dividing you and
someone else. And it's about creating the
bridge for that. That's what connection is.
And the third plot is a creativity plot.
So if you're familiar with MacGyver,
either like the 80s version or the current version,
every plot of a MacGyver show
is a creativity plot. It's
about taking these objects that don't
seem to work together and creating
something new that
solves a problem or gets you out of a
problem or is something that's beautiful.
It's that creativity spark and
it's that transformational story.
Creatives stories work really
well for visionary archetypes.
So are there any plots that work better
for some archetypes than others or, or
and, is it depending on the business?
So let's say if I'd be a relationship coach,
should I focus
on the connection plant?
There are archetypes that
lend themselves to
certain plots better than others.
So the hero archetype obviously does
really well with the challenge plot.
The caregiver does
really well with a connection plot.
The visionary does really well with
the creative part. So does the artist,
the artist is the creative plot. So yeah, there are
certain archetypes that lend
themselves better to other plots.
Love it. And would
you say businesses as well,
like the niche that maybe a coach chooses?
I think you could make it work for any
niche, honestly. Any plot for any niche.
So it's maybe more your story
what plot you choose rather than
necessarily the business that you run?
Yeah, I think for me, I would base
it more on archetypes, less on
the niche of the business. Yeah.
So, you just mentioned the three plots and the
archetypes and all this stuff, but how,
and you mentioned at
the beginning that
it's possible to have a
story in one sentence,
and I know that one of the key
questions I hear from my clients,
no matter if you do a lead
magnet or email or whatever
we kind of create or set up, it's
always like, so how many words?
Like should it be short? Should it be
long? So what's your take on that?
when it comes to
emails and things like that,
it doesn't matter honestly.
If you look at Seth Godin, who is
a brilliant marketer and
has thousands of followers,
I read him every single day.
He puts out a blog every
single day in email.
I get the email. His are
almost always very short.
He has the ability to be
concise and profound in a very,
in a way that is unique to him
and I have never been able to replicate.
If you look at some of the other
marketers that I love
they write really long blog posts,
really long emails and I'll see them in
my inbox and I'll know that it's going
to be good,
but I also know that I need to set aside
time to really get through it and they
make both work.
I think you don't also
have to be married to one.
I started writing very long blog posts.
Every blog posts was fairly lengthy
and then I had to almost give myself
permission to write short.
I felt like if I was done in a couple
of paragraphs like I had to keep going,
you know, and it's like, no,
you made your point. Move on.
Everybody can go enjoy their day
now. You don't have to keep writing.
So if you have done really
long-form stuff in the past,
don't be afraid to go short.
If you had done short,
you can explore long and see how that
feels. When it comes to things like blog
posts and emails, I think length can be very
flexible. When it comes to sales pages,
which is the number one question that I
get asked, is how long does my sales page
have to be?
There are really three
factors that determine length.
Number one is your price.
The more expensive the thing is
that you're trying to sell the
package, the coaching package, the
more convincing you're gonna have to do.
So if you're selling a let's say a, I dunno,
a one week intensive for $597,
and then on the other hand, you've
got this 12-months $10,000 thing,
guess which one you're going to have
to write more for to convince people to
even come on the call.
You're going to have to write
more for the more expensive item.
The second thing is tangibility.
If you are selling something like this
gorgeous mug that I can see and I can
I can feel it and I will use it every
day with my coffee or in this case water,
then you don't have to sell me very
hard on the mug. I can see it.
I can see for myself
that I will use it.
If you're selling something like
more fulfilment, more peace,
greater joy that are arguably a heck
of a lot more important than a mug,
but because they're
intangible like I can't see peace,
I can't feel peace, I can't
taste it, I can't hear it...
Then you have to convince me that you're
going to really be able to help me find
that and what that looks like in my
life. So the more intangible the concept,
the longer the sales page, the more
convincing you're going to have to do.
And the third factor is,
I'm going to go blank on this
third factor. Watch it...
Price, tangibility... Oh,
warmth, warmth of audience.
You should arguably always be
selling to a warm audience.
So a warm audience is people that have
already interacted with your brand,
they're already on your email list,
they've already worked with you in the
past. Those are all warm audiences.
Less convincing for the
people who know you well.
If you're writing an ad
for Facebook or Instagram,
you only have a limited amount of space,
but arguably you have to be a lot more
convincing to a cold audience. When you're
putting something on social media,
even if it's just a post not necessarily
an ad, but a post on Instagram,
a post on Facebook, a post on
what else do people use... Twitter,
you have to convince people a lot more
because you're selling to people who
don't know your brand.
And most brands,
the general rule is that they need to
interact with your brand at least seven
times before they'll be willing to buy.
I would say that's very individual.
Some people take a lot more than seven.
Some people jump right in.
And I would think it depends a little
bit on what you're selling too.
Whether or not that person feels
comfortable diving in faster than that,
but you have to know that when
you're selling to a cold audience,
when you're expecting eyeballs on the
page who haven't ever seen it before,
then you write longer, more convincing copy.
Yeah. And I think I've even
read a study or heard about
that it's now with the internet thing
like 14 times or 13 or 14 times
which makes sense because
we were getting a little bit more
I would say hesitant
towards buying online because some of
us simply just have been burned.
Yeah. I mean we are not getting the value
out that we put money-wise in.
I haven't seen that study, but I 100%
agree. Yeah. We're a lot more,
I guess cynical or jaded or
we have that
radar that's finely tuned and goes
off at the slightest provocation.
We're more conscious about reaching for our purse, I would say, maybe it's that kind of approach.
So I know you have
some helpful workbooks in your shop,
so do you cover what you
just mentioned anywhere in there?
Like is it in the...
Yes, so that's in there. I have a product called the anatomy of a sales page workbook.
So it's a workbook that you can actually,
you will have prompts and answer questions where I explain all of the different
sections of a sales page and
the psychology behind them.
So why you're writing the section so
that you don't just, it's not a template.
I also talk about the three factors
for determining length in that one.
I love it. So if you want to have
that, I put the link below this video,
but it's also heartlinescopywritingstudio.com/shop if you want to head there,
obviously not now, continue to watch
the video because I know Jess has more
golden nuggets to share, but you
can do it after the video ends.
So when you write the sales
page or emails or posts or
it doesn't matter, what is actually
the editing process that you apply?
We obviously learned the first draft
is always shitty-ish or crappy
and you do your editing, you
put a lot of thinking in there,
but what are some quick editing tips
that our watchers can apply to turn their
copy maybe from a, I don't know,
from a five to a seven or
eight with just a few things to tweak?
Yeah, so for me,
I always do my first draft with enough
time that I can walk away from it for 24
hours before I come back to do
any kind of editing. Because
when you're really familiar and you've
worked with it and you've been slaving
over it for a couple of hours,
your brain will fill in what you want to
see on the page because you
already know what you want to say.
And that may or may not have
actually come across on the page.
So if you give it 24 hours,
turn that part of your brain off and
then you come back to it with fresh eyes
and you're able to pick up on
places where you weren't clear.
A quick tip that I love... the most persuasive word in your entire vocabulary is
and psychology has shown us that
that little word because is magical,
that we automatically believe
whatever comes after the word because.
Mostly because our brains are lazy and
we don't really want to search through
all of our memories and our experiences
and things we've read to disprove every
time we encounter with that word
and whatever comes after it.
So we automatically believe anything
that comes after the word because which
makes it very powerful
for persuading people.
And I would say the more
relevant your reasons, the better. Although it doesn't actually have to be.
They did a study where they had
photocopiers in a standard work office
environment and they tried to have
somebody cut in line to use the photocopier,
which can be the equivalent
of taking your life in your hands
in some places. We all remember that
line up for the photocopier, right?
And the person would try to cut
in line and say, well, can I just
do photocopies. Can I photocopy
before you? And the answer was always no.
If you just ask, can I
go first? The answer is no.
So then they decided we'll
give the people a reason.
Can I go first because I'm really
crunched for this deadline?
And lo and behold they almost
always were able to go first.
And the thing they changed was
because and a valid reason after it.
So then they got curious and they're like,
well, what if it's not a real reason?
And so they had people say:
Can I go first because I need to?
Which is not a good reason, right?
And and people would
still let them go first.
And that's where they realise that
this word because is really the
And so adding that into places in your
copy where you really want to convince
someone of something where it's a really
important point that you want to make,
it's a fantastic word to
have. Love it.
I definitely need to use that one a little
bit more and obviously include a good
reason because sometimes
I'm just like, well,
I just ditch it because I'm thinking
there is no real good reason.
I rather don't write it or I actually
don't even think about it.
So what about, I think we talked about
it a little bit at the beginning, right,
what about when I write cliches and
obviously I know when I first started out
with coaching, I'm not
a native English speaker,
so I was first completely in awe with
all the new vocabulary that I needed to
learn and then I was so proud that I
could use the full potential and personal
development and underlying
beliefs and all that stuff,
so how can I step away from using cliches?
Is there an online resource that I can tap into?
Or does it just mean I would
need to read more books?
Or how can I get
better at writing,
infuse my copy with
fresh ideas? Yeah,
so cliches... Every industry
has its own jargon.
You know, we get down on lawyers and
doctors for all the
jargon that they use,
but really every industry has its
own jargon. And even as a copywriter,
I will throw out marketing terms and
forget that my client may not know what
those mean yet. You know,
we talked about the USP,
the unique selling
proposition earlier, and
when we talk about funnels, you know,
copywriters love to talk about
your funnels. So people are like,
I don't know, what that means. What does
that actually look like in my business?
And that's really the
best tip is to just sit down and go
what does that actually
look like for my clients?
And keep drilling down and drilling
down until you made it very specific,
A funnel is the emails that you send to
start a conversation before you make a
sale, you know? Yeah. Break it down.
When I'm writing copy and
I need different words,
I run to the thesaurus all the time.
I type T on my keyboard and
thesaurus automatically comes up.
And there's another one called the
idioms dictionary where you
can put in a phrase or a word like
you could put in the word heart and it
will tell you all of the popular phrases
that have to do with heart.
And then you can take those phrases and
you can turn them on their head or swap
out a word or two so that it
feels fresh. And the other one,
another one is the rhyming dictionary.
It does more than just rhyming.
We don't want copy that rhymes. That sounds,
it feels like nursery school again.
But it's a neat little tool in that there
are a bunch of other tabs that you can
open so you can find words that are alliterative or
you can find words that have
the right link to them. You
can look it up like syllables.
I think you can even have like a
I did use one time for my
own business cause it's heartlines.
And I think I put on the Shakespearean
search and I put in the word heart.
And then there are all these phrases that
have to do with the heart and of the
heart and a lot of Shakespeare
has become common, you know,
popular ways of saying things.
So it's a neat little tool
too to check out. Yeah. Wow.
I will actually link all those tips that you just gave,
all of the resources that you just
mentioned in the description below this
video. So if you want to check out something,
check the description below and yeah,
improve your copy in a few clicks.
Make it easy. That's obviously always
the best part of it.
So how did you actually
start out when let's say...
I know you have an extensive brief
and I remember when I filled it in,
I thought the first time, I was
like, oh my gosh, so many questions,
it's digging deep and it was
a lot of clarity for myself, right?
I couldn't fill it in in one go because
I literally needed to go away and come
So you don't necessarily know your
clients beforehand and the only thing that
you have is their brief.
So how do you tap into their world
and their ideal clients' world and then
come up with that copy?
Yeah, the brief is a
big part of it for me.
There's a little bit of
I go through the current
website and I read everything.
I'll read the blog posts,
I'll go follow them on social media and
read through what they're writing on
social media. So there's a
little bit of cyber-stalking,
but mostly it's the creative brief and
that is where all of my ideas really
begin. And it's 45
questions long. I know.
Yes. And I have had
people who, honestly,
the amount of time that it takes you to
do it really speaks to me amount of
clarity that you have about your business
and the direction that you're
headed and your clients.
Because I've had some people who completed it in like an hour and I've had other
people message me and they're like,
I'm on hour four, when does it end?
And you're like, well, I can't help
you. You need to know these things.
And I find because I worked with a lot
of people who are just starting out,
that it's the clarity they didn't
even know that they needed,
But I've also had people who
have been in business for years,
take that quiz and go wow
or no quiz... brief. And,
and I have had many people say, you know,
I came up with some really
great nuggets of information,
can you send me a copy of my
answers? And I do all the time. I
don't always send them,
but whenever requested,
I always send back to you the answers
because I think if they found insight and
they could recognise that
there was insight in there,
then for sure you take it.
Maybe the unique thing about me is
I write out all the answers by hand.
Seriously? I do. I transcribe and I've had people...
I've had people sending 17 pages back to me.
And I transcribe everything by hand.
And everybody gets a fresh notebook,
I transcribe everything by hand.
And there's something that happens when
it goes from just reading it to actually
that my brain makes these other
connections and I'll see what's important.
Then, I'll draw a big star on the page or
I'll start to get snippets of copy in my
head based on something
that they've written.
And so like my margins get
filled with little bits of copy.
That is a place to start. And by
the time I finished the brief,
I've got stars on the things that are
important, little bits of copy that are
playing in my head. And that
is the place that I begin.
Really. Wow. After 24 hours. I
make myself go through the brief,
write it all out,
and then wait and come back and see if
it still is brilliant as I thought it
was 24 hours before.
So how many edits are you doing?
So first you write out the brief again.
You already put your
first ideas out there.
Do you then write your first crappy
draft and then give it 24 hours?
Yeah. After, at the
end of the brief, I don't
start writing until I, unless I feel like super compelled,
I usually don't start writing.
I do the brief and then the next day I
come back and I look through again and I
just look through the pieces that I
noted as important and that's when I start
And sometimes the first day
is just getting a bunch of
random ideas that I can't
see how they fit together down. You
know, sometimes it's just, oh, that's an
amazing sentence. We'll figure out a way to use it.
Yeah. And then it's a process of, okay,
this is my first draft and then I leave
it and then I come back and sometimes
I'll look at it and I'll go, okay, are the
archetypes really showing up here?
Am I making, you know, if I,
because I always explain all
of my copy to the clients.
Can I explain to them and show them
where the visionary is coming in,
where the rebel is coming in,
where are the caregivers coming in?
Or have I forgotten one?
And if I have forgotten one,
how do I add that into
what I've already got?
So I'll do that as a kind of
editing draft and then I will do one
where I'm looking at my cliches. How else do I say this?
How can I be more specific?
Where can I be more specific?
Specific is always better. And I'll go
through and I'll just look for that.
And I have different kinds of filters
that I use when I look at the words or the
archetypes showing up or the
values showing up. Is there,
am I being vague or cliched anywhere?
Is there anywhere where I am,
you know, not being specific enough?
Is there, am I telling the story?
Am I telling the right
story in the right way?
And I'll look at just the
storytelling piece. And when you edit,
you just need one thing
to focus on each time.
And for yourself,
do you go through a list or is it just
like naturally now for you to
think about all those 1001 things you just mentioned?
I don't have a checklist that
I work from, it's pretty
I would say instinctual for me at this
point. You definitely could do
like an editing checklist for
yourself where you think about
look at cliches, look at where I'm
being vague, look at the archetypes,
look at this, look at that and go through
and just look at one thing each time.
Now it doesn't take me a whole day,
like I don't do one thing and then come
back the next day and do another thing.
You just go through the copy looking
for one, fix it, going through the copy,
looking for the next thing, fix it.
And I will do maybe three or four drafts
before I get to a point where I'm like
time for input from the client.
And I know that not every
copywriter works this way,
but I see it as a very
So I will get to a point where I'm like,
okay, it's time for eyes on the page.
I need outside feedback and something
outside of my head to tell me what feels
right, what doesn't.
And a lot of times it's just the tiniest
little tweak that the client wants and
they're usually pretty blown away.
But other times they'll come
back to me and they're like,
this section is just, you know,
and we'll go back and forth.
What about it is not right? What,
what are you feeling, you know?
I remember that when I did the sales page with you and I think we were done after the
second draft or something where we changed a couple of words, but already your first draft
to me it was just so brilliant.
There was nothing that I wanted to
change apart I think from two words
which I didn't understand from my English or lack of English
but it was just like a brilliant piece that
you delivered without knowing
me really beforehand in any way or shape.
So I thought that was just brilliant.
And I mean for all the procrastinators
out there and including myself who are
maybe perfectionists, what
you've just mentioned,
you know the editing process to give yourself time...
I think if we're like the business owners or
the coaches who do a lot of our own copy
that's what we often overlook, right?
we open up our task lists in the
morning and it says write three emails.
I don't know... For you it might be
the newsletter for the next month and
then we're just so happy that we finished
it that we don't go back
and look at it in a way.
And if I just listened to you now,
that's I guess for me a really good lessons
learned is to go back to your copy to
just take it to the next level and to get
better and better and better at it and
just not accept the first draft and put
that big tick just done kind of to it.
But to really go in there and look how
you can improve it. And next time you
probably will already be a little bit
better. I guess for you it comes now
intuitively when looking
at a copy what you need to change...
I think it's learnable. Truth to be told.
Yeah. Oh for sure. I mean,
before I was a copywriter,
before I knew that
copywriting even existed,
this was not a skill set
that I had. So yes,
you can for sure learn it. I think
when I write for myself, again,
I always write everything out on pen
and paper and that's my first draft.
And even if all I do is take it from
pen and paper and then start typing it,
I will change things as I'm typing it.
It gets edited as it goes on the screen.
And so that is always at least one draft
because sometimes I don't have time and
I'm writing 25 emails and I have to
get that done too. And I can't
take my time to go through,
but when I write that on paper
and then I put it on the screen,
that's always at least one
draft that I get. So you,
if you don't write on paper, that's fine.
You can do it in like a writing app.
Like I love the bear writing
app. It's very paired down.
But it's a great app for me
to get my ideas out. And I do
almost all of my social media posts
on the bear writing app.
But pick any writing app that
you love that does it for you.
You don't have to spend money on a writing
app. When you take it from there and you go over here,
don't just copy and paste and be done.
Like actually read it through and you know,
and see where can I add
emphasis or where can I do that.
So what do you say that using pen and
paper is the number one tip to
look at that blinking
cursor and think like,
well, you won't blink a little bit longer
and the page will not be blank anymore
because I've got some ideas. So what
is that thing to get you unstuck?
To get in the flow? To get writing?
Yeah. I can not
look at a blank page with a
blinking cursor and come up with anything.
It's like all creativity leaks out of my brain and I just stand there and I stare at
it like everybody else does.
Right. Where I'll just like ahem...
And so I
find tips for getting unstuck.
If you have a hard time writing,
whether it's pen and paper or
whether it's on the computer,
do a voice memo of
yourself and talk it out.
And then you can take out the
good nuggets or clean that up.
You know, take out the
tangents if you're me. Cause I,
when I talk I get on tangents,
but sometimes speaking it,
if that's easier for you,
do a voice memo and then work to
transcribe it and clean it up.
The writing apps...
I'm a big believer of putting inspiration
in and always making sure that you
have lots to pull from so that your
creativity never feels like it has deserted
you, you know?
So whether that's reading a lot of
poetry or fiction or I'm going to watch
people dance or taking in live musical
events or going to an art gallery,
whatever that is.
Always put the inspiration in so that
when you have to sit down and talk about
something, you have these ideas,
these experiences that you can pull from
and they don't have to be things that
you spend a lot of a lot of money on.
I think feeding that inspiration well is
essential in whatever you're doing.
I think it helps in your coaching too.
You have stories to tell when
you're working with
clients and you're coaching
and you have things to talk
about for social media.
I know even the mundane things can
work if you've got your eye open.
I went grocery shopping once in the small
town where my parents live and we were
going through the bread section.
My son lives solely on bread.
So we were going through the bread aisle
and I swear if we had no bread in
this house, he would starve.
And they had a display of doughnuts
but they didn't call them doughnuts.
They called them glazed yeast rings.
So I took a picture of the sign and that
became a social media post because I
understand trying to be creative
when you're naming things,
but there is nothing appetising
about a glazed yeast ring.
You know, it was just a glazed doughnut.
And so even something as mundane as
grocery shopping can be an inspiration if
you're in the mindset to look for things.
Is there any kind of final tip you
want to give the watchers here?
How they can uplevel their copywriting
let's say in no time?
I think I just want to encourage you
to experiment and encourage you to play
with the words and tell
you that it is never done.
Copywriting is never done.
You never just put it out there
and never look at it again.
You always need to go back and tweak it
and experiment with different headlines
and experiment with different
things. Do some A/B testing
which is marketing jargon for
changing out one thing in your copy.
Like just the headline and
leave everything else and
see if you get more people
on it or change out just your
call to action at the bottom
where you ask them to take
an action and see if that gets
more people clicking. You know,
it's just this
big playground of words.
And I think mostly I just want to
encourage you to keep experimenting.
Don't freak out if it doesn't,
if it's not working. And you don't
have to start from scratch if it's not
working, it's not a throw
out everything situation.
I think it's definitely,
obviously, it's part of marketing,
but I think that science combined
with let's say art or creativity is,
it's in marketing what do you need,
and I love that you use, you know,
give a permission slip to really play
and experiment with those things.
And it's really no different than
in marketing. You need to tweak.
you need to get out of your
comfort zone. You need to add,
check out and test out different maybe
strategies and tactics to find that sweet
as Jess mentioned at the beginning,
that connects you with your ideal
clients so that you get the
clients that you need in your coaching
Yeah. And then get feedback on your
words from other entrepreneurs.
Studies have shown that it's better to get
feedback from fellow entrepreneurs than it
actually is to get it
from your ideal clients.
Your ideal clients don't always know
what they want or how to express it or
what's best for them.
Whereas fellow entrepreneurs know just
enough about business and they don't even
have to be in your industry. They
don't have to be other coaches.
But fellow entrepreneurs can go, oh,
I read this copy and it
didn't resonate with me here,
or I wish you talked more about these
pain points over here. You know,
and the feedback that you get from
them is actually more valuable than the
client who's just asking
themselves, am I going to buy this?
Yeah. You know, all the entrepreneurs
come at it with a different lens.
What a brilliant tip to end
this episode of sabine.tv.
Thank you, Jess, so much for being here,
for sharing all the golden nuggets
you did. I mean it's incredible.
I guess if I would have had
pen and paper in my hand,
it would be the third booklet because you
shared so many incredible and valuable
tips. But before you leave, what is,
can you share a way how our
watchers can work with you?
Yeah. Well first, thank you so much for
having me. This was so much fun.
And my kids are going to be
thrilled that I'm on YouTube.
So if you're watching this
before Christmas, I have a 24-days
of surprises coming for December.
I send different emails with a different
little surprise in it every day for 24
days in December.
Otherwise, if you can,
head over to my website,
which is heartlinescopywritingstudio.com.
I have a shop where you can buy
digital products if you prefer to DIY.
Or I have packages if you would
like to work with me or I have my
Copy CPR package where
if you've written the words,
yeah, if you've written all the sales
page and you would like an opinion on it,
if you'd like me to go through with you,
then we edit in real-time your sales
page or whatever else it is that you're
I'm actually an addict of that one.
So definitely check this one out.
And I just sign up myself for
Jess's Christmas series.
So if you watch this
video now, head to
sabineb.cc/jess with a double s and should
you watch this video somewhere in the
new year or obviously
after we recorded it,
this will redirect you to Jess's website
where you can sign up for her newsletter
and I definitely highly recommend that
you browse through her shop because
there are so many different things in there.
Like, I think, it was the anatomy
of a sales page, right?
There was how to
write headlines and taglines.
I think you even share editing tips.
And just before we jumped on this call,
you shared that you
created new things
between now and the last time we were
talking and working together.
So it's always worthwhile
to check out her website.
So thank you Jess again
for being here with us
and I hope will return soon.
If you want to get your hands
on more tips and tricks,
just like you did in this video
here, please subscribe to my channel,
give this video a thumbs up and share
it with your friends. I'm curious,
what's one thing you want to apply in
your coaching business ASAP to move your
copy from ok to outstanding?
Please share it in the comments below as
I can't wait to read your comment. As I
love having you around
watch my other videos here on YouTube
as they are all about how to grow your
coaching business online. Bye for
now and I'll see you in the next one.